Unveiling the Power of Motivational Interviewing in School Counseling with Dr. Reagan North

Welcome back to another episode of Party Talk, where we empower leaders in youth drug prevention. I’m your host, Jake white, and today I’m hanging out with Reagan North. And check this out. Dr. Reagan North trains future school counselors at Liberty University and Grand Canyon University. Before our prior to working in higher ed, she was a high school counselor for six years. He’s written a book entitled motivational interviewing for school counselors. And he’s presented on the subject at ASCA, the nationwide conference for school counselors at multiple statewide school counselor conferences and various universities and school districts throughout the country. And his main goal is this to train as many school counselors as possible can use motivational interviewing, and Dr. Reagan, I saw you at the Arizona School Counselor Association, you know, statewide meet up and training. And I was taking notes the whole time. And I was like, This is so cool. Motivational Interviewing is so cool. And the way that you made it come alive for us and give real practical tips. So I just had to ask you to come on the show. So thank you for doing that.

Yeah, thanks for having me, Jake.

Yeah, we just found out too, that you teach at the University that I live at GCU?

Yes, yes, I teach some. I teach mainly school counseling classes. So I’m teaching future school counselors on how to do the job. And a lot of them are current teachers, current coaches, and they’re moving into the school counseling role. And it’s, it’s an awesome job. I love doing it.

Yeah and can we start by just kind of maybe just backtrack as far as like, where you get in school? If you study this, and then your time as a school counselor, like leading up to today, like what is your your quick, like, timeline? What’s that then professionally?

Yeah, so I’ve worked with kids in various different ways. I was a youth pastor for six years. And then I was a social worker. So were called foster kids. And then I got into school counseling. And I was a high school counselor for six years. And I loved it. It was amazing. And so I was basically in grad school, during that whole time. It’s ridiculous. It’s way too long, that I just went straight into teaching. So there you go. But like when I was youth basketball, I got a master’s degree in theology before I was youth pastor, then I was working on a school counseling degree when I was a social worker, then I was working on their PhD when I was a school counselor. So I’ve been in, you know, like, in higher ed forever, like, I’ll have dinner enforcing. But having said all that, I did not learn motivational interviewing, really, at all, in any of those levels. I just happened upon it in my own sort of personal reading, when I was a PhD student. And I thought, Why is no one taught me this? Because it’s super powerful. And it’s very potent, meaning it works very quickly, which is what a lot of people in the helping professions need. But it just, I mean, I didn’t learn it. And a lot of people on in my area school counselors, school nurses, teachers, administrators, we don’t, we don’t learn it. And so I was just shocked by that. So I went and got trained on my own own money on time, you know, traveled to learn under some of the best at this particular counseling style. And then I’ve spent time ever sets, teaching future school counselors, and also current school counselors, and nurses and administrators and teachers out to do this.

Wow. Okay, that’s incredible. First of all, been you’ve been in higher ed, you’ve never left. You never left higher. I know.

I know. It’s embarrassing. I know.

That’s the way to do it. I guess I’m similar. I mean, I’ve been speaking at higher ed since I graduated. But But now in that case, I’m also back in middle school to since I speak there, so.

Yeah, that’s a different thing.

Understanding Motivational Interviewing: A Powerful Approach in Counseling

And you you’ve done it in different states and different professions. You’re a social worker. So wow, that’s really cool. And what’s really interesting is that you said you found out about motivational interviewing later. So I would love for people who this is like a new term. For, for them motivational interviewing, if you could tell us like, what does it mean? And then how does it help you like, set apart you already said, it saves you a ton of time? Like it’s very quick. So you can explain it and then maybe even just like, how could it have helped you and all those other roles as a social worker as a youth pastor, as a school counselor, how does it help you?

Yeah, yeah. So I’ll I’ll say what it is. And then we’ll talk about how to do it. So motivational interviewing is, comes out of psychology comes out of counseling, really. And it’s, it’s based on Person Centered counseling or person centered theory, if people know what that is, which is basically the idea that people are not inherently messed up or crazy, or in need of an expert to fix them. But that people are their own expert. So someone who’s trying to help them, like I am not the guru that they’ve always sought for, and, like, sought after, they are actually they have, what they need to fix themselves inside. And I’m just there to help. So that’s sort of what person centered counseling is. And it’s been around a long time it comes from, right after all, like Sigmund Freud stuff, where Freud thought, everybody’s super crazy, everybody’s messed up. And they have weird sexual issues, you know, boys are in love with their mother. And we need to interpret their dreams, and show them, you know, crazy abstract art and see what like one of like, right there, and says, But what don’t they see in this, you know, it was it was very weird. And so Person Centered Counseling was like, now, I’m just going to trust you. And I just want to hear about your life, and I’m going to care about you, I’m going to listen really well. And a lot of people just get better. It’s kind of amazing. So it’s based on that motivational interviewing, it’s a little bit different, though. In that it’s, it’s very much focused on what motivates someone like that. I’m sitting with someone who wants their life to be better in some way. Sometimes they haven’t even acknowledged that, but I believe it because I trust that they want the best for themselves. And so I’m going to try and figure out what motivates them most. And help them build on that thing. So motivational interviewing started out in addiction treatment back in the 80s. And at that time, addiction treatment was very, like, intervention style. Like we need to make you feel super bad about yourself. Because look at what you’ve done to your family, how dare you, you’ve destroyed these relationships. Your mother hates you, your father disappointed in you. And you’ve ruined your marriage, you’ve ruined your kids. And they’re all here sitting around so that some people have seen this TV show the old TV show intervention. We’re all sitting here on the couch, everyone who loves us in the room to tell you how much we hate you. And then everyone cries, when Oh, you’re right, I need to get better. And so they go off to treatment. And at treatment, the idea was we need to make you hit bottom and show you how terrible you are. And then once you’ve hit rock bottom, then you’ll build yourself back up. The problem is a lot of people don’t have a rock bottom. They just use until they die. And this is more true than ever, because the stuff that’s on the street now is so dangerous. Yeah. to people’s health. That I mean, they could they could die quick. They could die on the first time with fentanyl and it could be dead right away. Right? I mean, I’ve seen it as a school counselor, I tragically had students die of fentanyl. And they didn’t know they were like massive addicts who are living on the street. Irrational laced into something at a party.

Yeah, even the DEA is calling it like it’s not an overdose. It’s a poisoning. Because they didn’t they didn’t even know what they were using. It’s right. It’s just like a poisoning.

Yeah, yeah it’s very sad. And so motivational interviewing is not that it’s not we’re gonna attack you and show you how silly you are, are crazy. You are how much you’ve ruined your life. We’re instead going to treat you as though you are the person who most wants you to get better. Which we actually believe now, it doesn’t look like that sometimes. And people who live with addicts, or people who I should say people who are struggling with addiction, like I did have my my father’s side of the family, all alcoholics. And some of them were deep into alcoholism. And if you ask them, Do you want to get clean? They would say, I don’t have a problem. How dare you? Meanwhile, you know they’re peeing in the front yard at Christmas. And you’re like, No, you have a problem. But you know, so.

Right. But it was a coping. It was their own on coping mechanisms, so today I’m like, No, this is an easier thing to do than getting better. So they might say, I don’t want to get better.

Right? Exactly, exactly. And most people who have struggled, have tried to get better. Like, you know, like, they go through the seasons where they’re like, I’ve ruined you know, I’ve ruined these relationships, and I’m ready to change. And they try a few things, and then they fail. And so like, to your point, they if they fail enough times, then they just give the impression that I don’t care. There’s nothing wrong with me, this is the way I want to live. Even if they’re in a gutter somewhere, and you’re like, No, you don’t, there’s no way this is what you want. But if you talk to someone like that, like in a confrontational way, they’re gonna argue with you. And I had other pushback on you. And so motivational interviewing says, no, no, I don’t want to I don’t want to fight you. I want to come beside you. And let’s walk together toward a healthier life for you.

The Transformative Power of Empathy in Motivational Interviewing

Yeah. And what’s, what’s cool. And what I what I’m hearing you say, is, and I know this about humans, right, we’re kind of like mirrors. If somebody shouts at us, we’re not gonna whisper bad, like, our reaction is the shout, or if we see someone crying, we want to cry. Like, we have empathy for each other. And that you’re seeing like you, you’re going with someone in their direction that they want to go, though, with motivational interviewing, you can help discover what that is, and therefore help them better instead of coming in as the so called expert, and just telling someone what you think, before getting to know them or or anything like that?

Yeah, so one of the coolest things about motivational interviewing, that is eye opening to people at first is like, let’s, let’s take the school scenario. So I’ll call a student down as a school counselor, and I’ll say, Hey, I’m just noticing that you’re failing every class. And the more traditional way of looking at that is, you might say, Hey, you’re failing everything, this is not good. If you don’t start passing classes, you’re not going to graduate. And then you’re not going to have it, you’re gonna have a hard time finding a job, you’re gonna make no money, and it’s going to be terrible. So don’t you want to pass your classes? Now a lot of kids will say, yes, because that’s what they’re supposed to say. And then if they say, yes, then you’ll leave them alone. Yeah, so they leave your office, or like, like, maybe the classroom, if it’s a teacher, they just walk away, and you think, Oh, good, things are gonna change now. But they don’t change. Because that confrontational style, doesn’t really get the results that you want. So if motivational interviewing, I might call them in and say, Hey, what do you think about your grades? And at first, they might assume that I’m going to be confrontational. And maybe they’ve built that mask. And so they may say, I don’t even care about my grades. Most people want to argue with that, and say, No, but you have to care. Because Don’t you know, that if you don’t get better grades, then blah, blah, blah. But as as someone using motivational interviewing, instead, I would say, Oh, you don’t care about your grades at all. So I’m just going to sort of come alongside them and reflect what they said, which is a counseling term, meaning, say back to them what they just said. And then see what they say. And for a lot of kids, like a high percentage of kids, they will immediately pull the mascots and say, No, it’s not that I don’t care. It’s that blank. And they’ll tell you some of some of the truth. Like, it’s not that I don’t, it’s not that I don’t care. It’s that I don’t have time to do my work. Okay, well, now we’re getting to something that’s a little bit more true. So then I just, I just say this, just reflect again, okay, so you’re too busy to do your work. And then they might say, well, it’s not that they might whip off another mask, you know, okay, well, it’s not that I’m always too busy. It’s just that right now. My mom is working the night shift. And so I have to help my little siblings at home. And it’s really hard. Okay, so now we’re getting to another level of truth. And then I might say, Wow, that sounds really taxing on you. That sounds stressful. You might be feeling some anxiety, so I just keep reflecting their experience of life. Yeah, it’s so hard. And it’s like, I’m trying to help my, you know, my elementary school siblings do their work, and I don’t have time to do mine. And it’s so stressful and I don’t know what to do. Okay, so now we’re getting to a place where I can help the student, as opposed to arguing with them and fighting with them about their grades. Yeah, so that’s sort of the first go to with MI, is just to show them that I’m on the same page with you. I’m not trying to fight with you.

Yeah, I have in my notes, so I found my notes from your presentation. And I wrote down what you had said, is you’re using statements instead of questions to reflect. You’re just you’re basically copying what they said. And you’re seeing it as a statement. And then you also said that what this does is it builds empathy. Rather than that, you know, like crashing together with different ideas. They, they’re like, Oh, you care. And you get, because you’re reflecting what they said. Right? That’s super cool.

It is cool. It feels unusual to us to the people doing it. It feels like yucky, like the first time that people try this. And this is research based, and also my observations, teaching people to do this. They think this is terrible. I hate this. Because I’m not doing anything. All I’m doing is reflecting them. But what feels good to me as of the helper is giving good advice, or will fill out a you know, a calendar so they can figure out when they’re going to do their work or something that feels good to me. And so I think it’s working, but it doesn’t work. But if you ask the students what feels good to you, would you rather have someone give you some really good advice? I mean, imagine that a kid’s saying, Yeah, that’s what I want an adult telling me what to do.

They don’t want that. No, they do not.

We think they do, we think yeah, I just changed their life, because I told them what they ought to do. I know it doesn’t work. But if if instead we just reflect what they’re saying, then by definition, they know that we understand that, because we are showing them. Yes, I just heard what you said. Yeah. And what research tells us is that empathy between a person trying to help someone, and the person is being helped that empathy is the biggest factor of all, of anything, of whether it’s going to work. So doesn’t matter, even like what you’re doing. Like if you use a cert, like if you’re a school counselor, and you’re using a certain counseling theory, now, like I’m doing cognitive behavioral theory, therapy, or I’m doing reality therapy, or whatever. Or if you’re, you know, a teacher, and you’re doing certain teaching techniques, or it doesn’t matter what your role is, or even what you’re doing with the student, if the empathy is there, the kids are very likely to improve. Wow. Which is crazy. Yeah. It’s usually we spent all our time figuring out what is the technique I should use to help this kid or all kids or whatever. And the research kind of says that is more or less important than the students knowing that you get them.

Wow. So that the fact that you care and get them is the biggest factor of them wanting to change or to spend time with you and like, even listen to themselves in your office. Like that’s what I’m hearing.

Yes, yes, right. And as a school counselor, I found that a whole lot of kids a high percentage of kids, if you just had a conversation like that, where I’m not fixing anything, this kid like to go back to my previous example, this kid has told me, I don’t have time to do my work. I’m living this heart situation where my mom is, you know, gone in the evenings. And so I’m helping my little siblings do their homework, and I don’t know when I could ever do mine. And then, you know, my, my administrative assistant comes in and says, there’s a kid crying out here. We need you right away. I say, Okay, well, I gotta go. We’ll talk more later. I can’t tell you how many kids left my office and went and improve their grades. Even though we had said nothing about how they might improve their grades. There’s something about students being known that empathy and being cared about, that’s all they needed. And off they go. It’s it’s crazy. I mean, it’s It shocked me every time even when I knew and I had experience. Seeing that that would work. I was still shocked.

The Impact and Efficiency of Motivational Interviewing in Counseling

That is amazing. You look at it and you’re like, wait, yeah, they there was no plan. There was no quote, advice. But just for them exploring and knowing that you cared, identifying what maybe that barrier was they needed to overcome. They they did it.

Yeah. It’s amazing. It’s amazing. But I think, I don’t know. I mean, this is all theory. But I think that we spend so much time, kids, adults doesn’t matter who building up our defense mechanisms on our masks, that when those are when we drop those, we let those go all of a sudden, we have more energy to focus on improving our lineups. I mean, I don’t know how else to explain it than that. But we don’t know exactly why it happens. But it does. We know that it does.

Yeah and I have another note on that, which is, he said, when they when you reflect to them, you basically say what they said, they get a moment to reflect on what they said, and determine whether it’s true or not. And I thought that was so it’s so simple, but so cool. That just by not them saying it, because that might be an excuse. It could be a lie. It could be true. It could be whatever it is, it could be something they’re trained to say, because they’ve been saying that to everyone. But then they will get to determine whether they want to change their answer or tell you the truth, just because you said it back to them. The other thing that I was wondering if you could expand on because I had, I had wrote down like a few phrases. And you explain the difference between change, talk and sustain talk. And since I’m not a school counselor, I never heard this before. But I wonder if you could explain that as well.

Yeah, so part one of motivational interviewing is building empathy. And then the second part is what you’re referring to, which is change talk. And that is where I’m trying to identify as a person trying to help someone, I’m trying to identify what they care about what motivates them, and to get them to talk about it more. So change talk is anytime they’re talking about change. So like in the context of substances, they might say, I know I need to cut back. I want to cut back. Here’s some reasons why I think I should I hate that I do this. I’ve already started cutting back a little bit. Anything like that is changed Shaw. Sustain talk is, I know I need to cut back. But blank, anything that’s blank is sustained talk. In other words, it’s status quo. And it doesn’t actually matter if it’s legit or not. Like they might say, I know I need to, but I just have to have a little bit of a buzz while I’m playing fortnight. And you’re like, That’s dumb. Or they might say, I want to cut back. But my dad cuts fentanyl in the garage with my uncle using baking powder, and baking soda. And I help them sometimes. And you’re like, oh my gosh, how could this get ever get free? Either way, it’s the same thing to the person helping it’s called sustained talk. And I’m going to treat it the same way. Which is by more or less limiting it. Like I’d rather not hear about the things that are holding you back. I want to hear more about this alternate future that you’re interested in. The reason for that is we know from research, that if people will talk in a positive way, about a different future, they’re far more likely to do that. If you let them talk about the things that are holding them back, they are far more likely to obsess about those things, and not change. Wow. But most of us are trained to do that we’re trained to say to ask what things are holding you back, or what obstacles are in your life. And the intent is so that we can try to address them. But in the process, the students are talking themselves out of potentially changing because there’s a yeah, there’s this there’s this there’s this, how can I ever get better? See, there’s nothing I can do. And they and they start embracing a victim mentality. And we don’t see any change. Wow. But if instead we can say, okay, so even if a kid says I’d like to cut back but and they give all these reasons, as the person trying to help them, I’m going to basically ignore that. And I’m going to say okay, so there’s something about it. Adding back. That is important to you. So I’m going to reflect just like I did before, but I’m going to reflect the change though. Okay, and then they’re going to tell me what it is. Yeah. Because and they’re going to tell me what’s important to them. And that’s what I need to know. Yeah. Because my, my grandma takes care of me sometimes. And she’s so amazing. And she, she works really hard, even though she should be retired, but she just worked so hard to try and take care of me. And I want to make her proud. Okay, I know now, what motivates that kid? And so I want to know, everything about grandma. Tell me about your grandma. I want to know it all. So I want to have a lot. I want to have 30 minute conversation about grandma. Because as that kid talks, they’re going to remind themselves, how much they love their grandma, how much she sacrifice for them. And why even though all these things are in their way, they’re gonna persevere and they’re gonna get it done. Because they love grandma. Now, when you when you watch people in these various roles, like school counselors, administrators, addiction counselors, people like this, they they will typically do the opposite. They’ll say, Tell me all about your life. Tell me all the bad stuff. Tell me how hard it is. Oh, yeah, see all these obstacles? Maybe. Maybe they start giving advice, maybe you could do this, maybe you could do that. Blah, blah, blah. It’s not going to work. Because we’re doing all the work. In that case, we’re doing all the thinking we’re doing all the dreaming. And the kids just sitting there going, Yeah, okay. Yeah, I could try that. Okay, maybe I don’t want that. I want them to be doing all the talking all the thinking, and I want them to be dreaming, basically, I want them to take hold of their future, and what matters to them, and dream and go that way. Right? It’s a beautiful thing. It’s, it’s really cool.

What’s really hitting you right now is that the sense of self exploration is like you’re giving the student a chance to explore and discover something about themselves, instead of you trying to jump a step ahead of them, and say, oh, you should feel this way. Or you should discover this for them. And you’re saying like, No, this student experience in your office has to be all about them discovering this about themselves, and you’re just reflecting. And then using that reflection on the change talk, rather than the sustained talk to help them do that. And I don’t you probably, so I got to do your very short, like keynote, I didn’t get to go into the training. So that’s something I would love to go to one of your trainings one day, and you know, get the full thing. Because people who came back were just, they loved it, they were so pumped, right with their new skills. And even just that one thing of you talking about change, talk and sustained talk, immediately though, I was like, alright, change talk is simple to understand, because they’re talking about how they want to change. Sustained talk, is how they would basically sustain the same problem that they have, or the same thing that we know isn’t a great idea. And that by concentrating on one, rather than the other, you’re basically stacking them on top of each other. So you’re asking about all the obstacles, you’re gonna start piling them up in front of all until they see this huge pile of obstacles that they’re like, Yeah, I can’t get over this. Versus now this huge pile of reasons, I’ve decided that I do want to change, and I can. That’s so powerful, and they got to discover it with you. And I love what you said about like, it feels good for us to give it by. But what’s working? So it’s like, “do you want to feel great about your session? Or do you want to be really effective in it?” And then also, like you had mentioned in the beginning, take less time, so you can then see another one of those students. Because if anybody’s listening to this, who isn’t works in a school or school counseling, or you’re a drug prevention coordinator, or professional, and you’re going to take on the role of a counselor, you’re probably all thinking the same thing is like, yes, this sounds amazing. And if it’s quick, I can help more students because the caseload is too big.

Yeah, not only is it quick, it’s the quickest thing we know of in all of counseling. So a minute ago, I said I want to have a 30 minute conversation about grandma, which if I had time for would be awesome. However, I don’t have to school. Motivational Interviewing is highly research based. There’s over 2000 clinical trials. And the vast majority of those use a single session of 15 to 20 minutes, which is insane. Most Things take forever. There’s lots of things that work. We know of lots of things that work and addiction treatment and counseling. But they take a long time they take in, like cognitive behavioral therapy, for example, highly effective, and addiction treatment, highly effective in all kinds of different counseling, anxiety, depression, however, it is it takes a while, it’s assumed that it’s going to take four or five sessions of an hour apiece ish to be effective. Great if you’re a therapist, not great. If you’re not, like, counselor, that was too much for me, I I love CBT and love the ideas. I believe it works. And I don’t have time to use it. Yeah, it certainly was gonna go fast. Emi works so fast. I mean, it’s ridiculous there. Are there studies where it works in five minutes. It’s the only thing I know of in counseling that’s shown effectiveness and five minutes, that’s wild. How can you change someone’s future in five minutes? It’s crazy. And the answer is, it’s got to be something that gets at what’s in a person’s heart. Because if you have a 5,10,15,20 minute conversation with a kid, where you access what matters to them, like in my example, I figured out it was grandma. And then I access that for however long I have. Before this kid’s got to go, and I got to see the next kid. Then that student walks out of my office after 10 minutes and continues to think about grammar. And so what looks like a 10 minute conversation was actually two hours over that day. And then it came back into their head the next day for another 10 minutes. And then it came back in their head the next day for another 30 And the next day for another 20. And so what looks like a small conversation can be very long in reality, in that kid’s heart and mind if I actually access what’s in their heart, as opposed to advice that I would like to give them.

Taking Action: Learning More about Motivational Interviewing with Reagan North

Yes. Okay, this is good. How can people learn more? So for example, like the people listening here, they’re probably working in the schools. They might have never heard of motional motivational interviewing before? Or maybe they have and they’ve been intrigued. How do you get trained? Do you do that? Is there a board? And then just like, how can they learn more about you, too? So what are the next steps? If someone says, Yes, I like this. I want to do more. And it can they do it with you?

Sure. Well, the probably the cheapest and quickest way to get started anyway, is to read my book. And I’m not out to sell books, but maybe maybe I am I don’t know, I think I remember a book for cow school counselors, because I was one. And it just wasn’t a cheap and easy book to read on this. I wrote one. It’s called motivational interviewing for school counselors. Now, the same techniques that you would use, if you’re in any role are in there. So you don’t have to be a school counselor. It’s just that the examples come out of schools. So if you’re in a school in any way, it’s gonna make sense to you. If you want more than that, there are people like me who travel around training people. I was, you know, I travel around to different school districts and state conferences and stuff like that. If you want to contact me, my email is prettysimple.reagan.north@gmail.com. And there’s but there’s other people too. There’s a thing called the motivational interviewing network of trainers, which I’m a part of that. And these are people who have been trained to train others to do motivational interviewing. So I would use someone in that network. EMI is not like a trademarked term. So anyone can say that they’re doing it or they’re training you to do it. But unless they’re a part of that network, it’s hard to know for sure.

Yeah. Okay, that’s cool. Awesome. So Reagan North Google and check them out on social media and you said Reagan.north is your email. Yep. Awesome. And since I’ve seen you do your thing, I’ll, I’ll vouch to say like if you liked this podcast interview, and want the live version, like it’s really fun, it’s really funny too. I love how you incorporated jokes and humor into it to make it entertaining. And I didn’t even get the best part of the show. So if anybody has questions, reach out to Reagan. I’ll leave some links to his his email and socials on here in case you want to get in touch and yeah, Reagan just thanks for spending some time with me today so that you could share motivational interviewing with our people and we can start using it and changing some lives quicker

I hope so, I hope so. Thanks for having me, Jake. I appreciate it.

Of course and for everyone listening thank you for tuning in to another episode of the Party Talk Podcast where we empower leaders and youth drug prevention. We’ll see you next Monday for another episode.