The Interplay of Technology, Parenting, and Mental Health

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of the Party Talk Podcast where we Empower Leaders in Youth drug prevention. And today, I’m chatting with a new friend Nicole Runyon, and I’m just gonna pull up some notes because Nicole is awesome. Check this out. She is a speaker, psychotherapist and a parent coach. She’s worked with children and adolescents for over 20 years, and brings her knowledge on the root causes, or the mental health epidemic to large audiences.

Nicole’s profound understanding of technology’s impact on mental health, child development, and the intergenerational variations in parenting has made her a highly sought after speaker. She’s dedicated her life’s work to helping parents foster proper development and successful transitions into young adulthood for their children. So Nicole, that is incredible. Thank you for saying yes to being on this podcast today. Yes, thank you for having me. It’s an honor to be here, of course. And I remember we we’ve met briefly, but can you just tell us a little bit more about maybe how you got into this work and why you’re passionate about it? 

Sure. Yeah. Well, I that starts when I was 10 years old. And I won’t make this story as long as how old I am. But it’s important to know that I’ve always wanted to be a child therapist since I was 10. And so, it, I think it’s a calling for me, I never saw myself doing anything else. And I have a true passion around helping children. So how I got into it was through psychotherapy, individual psychotherapy with children. And I’ve been doing that for 21 years. And about 10 years ago, I saw a real shift in my practice from when I had first started. And the shift was that I was seeing mental health issues to a level of severity that was not really connected to any root cause, you know, my training was always see the child in the context of their environment. And if you’re seeing something in front of you, you’re seeing mental health symptoms, then traditionally, there may have been some abuse or neglect, or some kind of a trauma. But the kids that I was seeing, were exhibiting these mental health symptoms with now abuse, neglect, trauma, intact families, parents who were very concerned. And I really had to sort of ask myself what’s happening. And in the course of those 10 years, my practice was was overflowing with children, I’d always sort of seen, I’d take a couple of adult clients just to kind of mix it up for myself over the years. But it was the majority children and overflowing and I was having to turn families away consistently, because I just was not there wasn’t enough of me to go around. And in my community, there was I, it was me and another therapist that that saw kids, a lot of therapists just simply don’t see kids. So we were just really booked up. And then finally, some more therapists started moving in. And I was so grateful, because I had people to refer to, and then suddenly those therapists started filling up. And I thought, Okay, well, so we gotta figure this out. This is just not right. And so I started to really dig deep into why are we seeing what we’re seeing when really, there’s no root cause, as far as I can tell, and this was about eight years ago, I delved into the realm of technology, digital technology, and how it is affecting their mental health. And there wasn’t a whole ton of information about it back then, you know, in fact, most people were celebrating how it could be helpful to them in their education, and how it could teach them, you know, I’ll give a two year old an iPad with an ABC program, and they could learn to read and people were really excited about it. But there was something instinctually in me that just knew that this wasn’t going to be good, but I didn’t particularly know why yet. So I started talking about it. It was kind of like a social experiment. I just went in to my community, into schools, into community groups, and just started talking to parents about it. And the parents who showed up were absolutely so engaged and invested in the conversation because they see it and their own kids. And then here’s somebody that’s saying, “hey, you know what, this might be a problem.” And here’s why this is a problem because they started talking about child development, and how, you know, in each phase of development, they need certain things they need to go through these stages to get to the other stage to learn and grow and feel this wrong and capable and self confident. And so people were really responsive to it. And then I started to dig a little even more deeper and say, You know what, it’s not just the tech, the tech is like, it’s like a symptom of a bigger problem. So what’s the bigger problem? And the conclusion I came to, is something that I call the culture of parenting. And what I think has happened, and this happens in every generation, the pendulum is on one end. And then when those kids that grow up in that generation, grow and have their own kids, the pendulum swings all the way to the extreme on the other end. And, and so we can look back historically, and all the generations that are still living the greatest generation, the Baby Boomers, Gen X, Gen Z, and now alpha. And we can say, Well, this was done, then the next generation this was done. And then this was behind, and this was done. And so I started to really ask myself, okay, what happened to Gen X in particular, right, because Gen X is raising Gen Z. And then the millennials are raising alpha, which is the current generation. And what I started to realize is that Gen X was really the forgotten about generation, right? We’re called the latchkey generation, where we were very independent, which I think is wonderful and grave. But we were also very neglected, and our feelings in general, and neglected in just sort of being able to talk to a trusted adult about our needs and our feelings and how we can sort of get past them. So because it was so uncomfortable for Gen X, now we’ve swung into raising Gen Z, without any feelings of discomfort without any negative feelings. And, and then, when they have a little bit of anxiety, when they have some sadness, when they’re experiencing, you know, just the gamut of feelings that all of us experience. We pathologize it, we diagnose it, we say, Oh, you’re experiencing anxiety. We put them in therapy, we send them to the psychiatrist. And now in no way am I saying that some kids don’t need the mental health treatment. But the majority, I looked at my practice, and the majority of my practice, were kids whose parents actually needed coaching, and not the kids that actually needed therapy. And so that’s how I moved into the coaching. And the speaking rally, because I want to get this message out to as many people as I possibly can. That really, it’s not a mental health crisis. It’s a cultural crisis. 

Yeah, the reason why I, I’m getting goosebumps right now is because the, what’s is crazy, okay, so the root cause, not only just being technology, but also how each generation and as swings back and says, Well, I’m not going to do what my parents did, or I’m not going to, I’m not going to mess up with that same way. And we go the completely opposite way, not kind of like learning in increments, or swinging to the middle, maybe, but like, all the way to the opposite. And I can see evidence and everything, you’re saying that I didn’t feel like my balance, my feelings mattered. So now I’m only going to focus on my feelings for my kid. And that’s the most important thing. And we’re going to prioritize that you should never feel uncomfort or pain. But then that’s going to that has its effects too. So that’s, that’s just really, really incredible. And I think that the learning curve of today’s generation, and what we talked about in our presentations a lot is the fact that looking for a quick fix, like a medicine or a tablet or technology that doesn’t fix a problem, but maybe is a temporary escape, or it’s the easy what seems like a solution, but it can’t really make it better. It seems like the generation is really, really into these, like, I want to escape my feelings, or I want to get rid of this as fast as possible. I don’t want to work for it. But I want to. Yeah, I want to escape it quickly.

Absolutely. And it really is a cultural problem. Because I think we we as a society now. Don’t want to experience any pain, right? It’s not even we don’t even want to experience boredom, or inconvenience. So now we can press a button and have groceries delivered to our door. We don’t even want to be inconvenienced enough to go to the grocery store. So

Understanding Adolescent Brain Development and Discipline

Yeah, all the quick little things that we shouldn’t have to do anything. Yeah. Wow. Okay, so I want to I would definitely love to talk with you about two things during our time together. The first one would be kind of the the adolescent brain and development, and then to maybe, whatever you think would be most helpful as far as like, should we talk about technology and how that impacts because I’m trying to put myself you know, and the people that are listening to this, they’re very, very interested in, in childhood development, building up strong, resilient, goal oriented students that prioritize their good decisions and avoid risky behaviors. So anything that you could share that could help educate us on how to better reach students to make better decisions, would be really, really valuable. 

That’s great. I love that what you said about creating strong, resilient kids. And yeah, I can help your audience understand development and why they need actually, I’m going to use the dirty word that many therapists refuse to use anymore, called discipline. Discipline is the discipline. And the reason for this is because from the age of zero, they have developmental needs in certain stages. So from zero to 18 months, they have one and only need and that need is for their caregiver to respond to their, to their needs. So they cry, caregiver response. And that helps build attachment and trust. And that actually stimulates brain development early on. And before six 90% of brain development happens. So those first six years are very, very important. And that’s why attachment from day one is so key. So before the age of six 90% of their brain is developed 90%. What’s, what’s left is the prefrontal cortex, which is responsible for executive functioning decision making impulsivity. So that actually doesn’t fully develop until 25. So before 6, we’ve got a lot of work to do. Because the executive functioning, the decision making the impulsivity we really have to, like contain them, from 6 to 25, to keep them doing what you what you’re, you know, advocating for them to be strong and resilient, and not have those risky behaviors. 

Building Resilient Kids: The Crucial Developmental Phases from 0 to 6 and Their Impact on Anxiety

Okay, wow. And so, and this is something that I understand a little bit about, but feel free to fill any holes in this. So the first 90% is more of like the basic brain functioning and, and feelings and things like that. And the frontal lobe or the cortex is the part that does impulse control and long term decision making and problem solving. I’m curious in that, like, first part, is there an age, you know, zero to six, when attachment is so important? What are the things that a child learns? That’s like, it’s so crucial for that point? Yeah, be like what developed? Well, because if it’s not mean, you see this, or if it’s done, well, you see something else? Is there an example? 

Yeah, so actually, there’s, there’s more in those six years. So 0 to 18 months, it’s just the attachment 18 months to 3, as well, and authority. So this is when like, you know, the terrible twos, they say, No, they, you know, they dig their heels. And this is a time when it’s important that you show them your parental authority, and you have boundaries with them. And then they they can learn how to have boundaries from you. Because in a lot of parents today, so you’re asking, like, what, what do people need to know about that a lot of parents today allow their two year olds to sort of do whatever they want, right? Because they don’t want the tantrum, they don’t want the fight. They don’t want the No. And that’s the worst thing you can do. Because you’re not modeling for them. That “Hey, like, you need a boundary, really to protect yourself.” Right? I mean, no, you cannot run in the street. That’s an example of what they need at that age. So So that’s that age, and then from three to five. And by the way, each, each phase builds on the one before it so if they have attachment, then they can trust their parents authority and boundary. If they can trust their parents authority and boundary they can go into three to five which is autonomy and independence. And this is when they need to start learning how to do things like tie their shoes and zip up their coats and button their shirts and you know, sort of activities of daily living because they’re gonna go off to preschool without you, though, the reason why there’s so much separation anxiety in this age range is because many parents do those tasks for their kids. Because again, we don’t want them to be uncomfortable. It’s hard to learn how to tie your shoes, right? The bones and the hands don’t fully fuse together until they’re six. So social emotionally, they need the frustration at three and four, to tie their shoes. Because physically, it’s gonna be really hard, but they need to build that frustration tolerance. 

Wow, that is so important. I’m thinking I need I already, I need to send this to every parent. Because just knowing that the development from you know, 0 to 18 months to 3 to 5 and 6, and how it does build on each other. And I, I can think of examples, just like you said, of, wait, we don’t want to make our kid uncomfortable, or we don’t want the tantrum. But we’re stealing their opportunity to develop and to go ruining it for them.

And then they’re scared, and then they’re scared to be away from us, right? Because they can’t do it, because we did it for them. And then and then we call it anxiety. And then we put them in therapy. 

Wow. Okay. Dang, that is that is telling right there. Yeah. That if you skip that, it would make sense why your your child would be more anxious, have more anxiety. And then it’s Wow. And so we’re talking about prevention right now, then we’re talking about building resilient kids starting from zero. 

Yeah, hands down. Yeah. And so it boggles my mind why people do the cried out thing. But then they let their two year old do whatever they want. So I actually think it’s flip flopped, I think we shouldn’t do cry it out. Because at that time in their development, they need us to respond to them. That’s how they build trust. And that’s the foundation for then then self soothing, then, you know, trusting themselves, then saying like, I Okay, yeah, I don’t need you. I can handle this by myself. But in in our culture, the culture of parenting, we’ve actually flipped that.

That is very interesting. I’ve never thought about that. But that is very interesting. And so it’s all all your methods are based on the development of the brain, though. Absolutely. It would make sense that like No, right? cry yourself to sleep. Build that, that autonomy, or yeah, not yet. It’s not time. It’s not time yet. Right? Okay. Because you’re saying what they need to develop their brain faster is the attachment. And later the autonomy comes to play. Okay, that is super, super interesting. And definitely, yeah, this is already so great. I’m, I’m sending it to all my friends. This. So now that we understand that part of the brain, kind of like what to look out for how it could play out? How does and you know, I’ll leave it open to you, what do you think would be more valuable to talk about how technology impacts this? Or move on to the second part of the brain? Where do you want to take this? 

Well, I’ll actually do both. And I can do it quickly. So for from 5 to 12. So pay it, so we did three to five, five to twelve is confidence building. So again, if I attach to my parent, if I respect boundaries, if I’m autonomous and independent, I’m ready to be sure of myself and receive the world. Now, what’s happening today in those ages is everyone wins, everyone gets a trophy. If my kid got a bad grade, I’m going to call and yell at the teacher. But actually, that’s not what builds confidence. What builds confidence is they made a mistake, they failed. They had to build their tolerance for discomfort, and guilt and pain from that and they moved past it. And now they look back and they say “wow, look at me, I’m strong. I feel good about myself.” I can do it. And then from 12 to 18 is identity development. If I feel good about myself, I know who I am. 18 to 25 is solidifying that I know who I am. Now how technology affects this is it infiltrates every single natural process, processes that need to occur to go through all of that. So it’s a distraction. It’s a it’s a brain dopamine fits, right. Why would you want to build your tolerance for hard things? When you have a device or a game? Or binging Netflix? That makes you feel awesome.

Wow. Okay, so if I feel like I almost understand it, I’m 90% there that if you’re, if you’re too, if you have an alternative to developing developing a brain is hard. It’s hard work and it’s important because it makes you the person that’s stronger, resilient. But again, that’s the skill that’s hard. The shortcut, the easy way is to get distracted by technology. Let that be your dopamine to escape the hard things. And so if we have that at an earlier age, it can stunt almost the development of our brain, or maybe almost is just saying like, no, it can stunt the development, right? 

Oh, hands down. In fact, now we have studies of brain scans that show that children’s brains are developing differently than in previous generations, particularly with a gray matter. And gray matter is responsible for sensory processing. And so now that’s just the mental brain stuff. Well, we’re seeing a lot of our physical problems to kids aren’t developing sensory motor integration. And it literally is because they’re their brains and their gray matter isn’t warming. 

And how would you explain like sensory motor, like, What do you mean by that? 

So it’s, basically your body needs to integrate as you develop. So when you’re a baby, you have primitive reflexes for survival, you have the startle reflex, you have the moral reflex, which is route, I’m sorry, you have the rooting reflex, which is like looking for food. These are always things that you need to survive. Now, as you grow, you’re supposed to move, physically move. And then those reflexes, it’s called integration, those reflexes go away, you don’t need them anymore. Because your body through movement is getting what it needs. So now we’re finding because more and more young kids, little kids, toddlers are on devices early on, their gray matter isn’t developing, they’re not getting movement. So they’re retaining their reflexes, which is actually responsible for a whole boatload of problems, emotional regulation, we see a lot of young kid now not be able to regulate their feelings. And it’s responsible for sensory sensitivities. So we see a lot more of this now where kids have a hard time with sound and light and the clothes on their body and food. We have so many picky eaters now. Right? And, and so then like, on that level, where we’re, like, body wise, physical wise, nutrition wise, they’re not developing as well. So actually, how I talk about it is it starts with the movement, we have to stop restricting their movement. Babies now are in a snoo, I don’t know if you’ve heard of this new, it’s a smart bassinet that straps them in and basically acts as a surrogate parent, because parents don’t want to be inconvenienced with young babies. And so it’s restricting their movement from early on, which then affects their brain development, which affects how they go through this social emotional development that I was just explaining. So it all starts there.

Wow. Dang, now I can see why being a parent is like a big deal. 

It’s a big deal. And you know, the thing is, us parents today, I have two kids, I have a 10 and a 15 year old, and us parents today, we’re we’re really were the absolute first generation that’s dealing with us. Right, and, and on top of that, we’re a generation that, again, was neglected overall. So we don’t want to be uncomfortable. We all want our kids to be uncomfortable. And wow, look at this, look at this modality that we now have to make the kids happy and comfortable all the time. 

Nurturing Resilience: The Impact of Parental Boundaries on Child Development

Yes. And you know what? So So from being a youth speaker for drug prevention, for volunteering at my church, on at the Youth Program, all these things, I see evidence supporting everything you’re saying, like, I, I’ll go to a school, and I’ll talk to this kid afterwards, who’s really outspoken, really confident, knows who they are. All these things, they they’re really developed and outgoing. You’re telling me about their hobbies and their interests. And those are the ones who say, Oh, I can’t follow you on social media. And I’m thinking like, this, this is so great. You, your parents didn’t let you get into technology. You’ve created a life. You’ve created resilience, you’re strong person who knows who you are. And then the ones that don’t seem sometimes to they can’t hold a conversation or they haven’t developed those things. And they have more anxiety, they’re struggling more often times than not, they’re the ones that have the device, they’re always on it. They’re using it and the nature of the technology too, is like it does hook you into it. It’s designed to keep you there longer, which makes the problem worse. It’s good for ad spend and for the company, but it’s not great for development. So that’s I see so many clues, and I used to think for parents, I was like that. So I would think to myself, That’s so controlling or like that you don’t trust your student with the device. But now I see it’s just like really, really protecting their brain, and all the risky things that can happen. But from this conversation, it’s more than that. It’s really protecting your entire development to, like, we call it the delay of onset use, right for substances, if you can delay the age till they start using, they’re less likely to become addicted. We almost have to have the same thing for technology then. Right? 

Oh, 1,000%. I love that you said that. You’re protecting their development. I call it protecting their childhoods. And I often say what you just said, you wouldn’t give them a beer. Right? You wouldn’t give them a cigarette or a vape. Before they’re old enough to know how to balance it. It’s the same thing with talk. Hands down. And we have to see it that way. 

Yeah, yeah. And it’s that I know with with drug and alcohol addiction, it’s that frontal lobe, right. So if you introduce the addictive drug in there before the brain is fully developed, it can shut down that development of the frontal lobe. But this technology, it because I know technology releases dopamine as well. And it’s probably not the same spike of dopamine that someone would get from a drug. But it is still like it’s big. The the comments the likes, the the feedback that people get from social media is the dopamine spike. So does it still do the same thing to your frontal lobe does it do you know, if it shuts it down? 

It does it that it reads the same. Actually, there was a study done I think in 2016, or 2017, Hamson brain life center, did a study where they showed a particularly adolescent girls picture of themselves with likes and validation, and the same areas in their brain lit up. As with drugs and alcohol.

Wow. Oh, my goodness. It’s a Wow, a drug that I think I’ve heard is a drug that enters through your eyes.

It’s a good way to put it. 

Wow. Okay, so what are some what are some things that that people can do as far as like integrating to their families, and that I would love to hear at birth, maybe some quick tips on how we can like bring you into our communities to work with our parents and, and all that stuff? Absolutely. So So you said it, I always recommend delayed usage, as long as you possibly can. I, you know, my my recommendations are extreme, I’ll just say that. I don’t think that kid should have a smart device, at least until high school. And if your particular kid is prone to impulsivity, or, you know, has trouble managing their feelings or regulating, I would say that they shouldn’t have it at all. There are alternatives. There are devices like gab phones or pin wheel that have no internet and no social media. So they’re a little bit more benign in terms of like what the kids can do and how addicted they can be with it. I also don’t recommend iPads in you know, the toddler years or even those school aged years, there’s absolutely no reason for it. They should learn how to be bored, they should learn how to entertain themselves, they should learn how to cook, they should learn how to plant, go outside, climb a tree, ride your bike, the all of those things are important for the development that I was describing. And so delay, delay delay. I also don’t think kids should be on social media until they’re 18. And I now again, that’s a very extremity. I get a lot of flack for that one. But again, you like they can’t smoke cigarettes, or vapes or anything until they’re 18. They can’t drink until they’re 21. I mean, why should we see it any differently. And now, I mean, there is so much now information about social media and the damage that’s caused, kids are killing themselves over cyber bullying. They’re killing themselves over spec sextortion. I mean, all kinds of things are happening. And I just don’t see why we can’t see it that way that this is like this has reached an epidemic level of issues and problems and and we really do need to like pay attention to that. The other thing that I recommend is that parents are down their devices and they look at how much disconnect they’re creating in the family, because children model from their parents. So and I’ve heard this time and again where the kids say well, how can you tell me to get off my phone when you’re on yours all the time. There absolutely has to be some tech free time, amongst families, I was recommended dinner time, there should be a time where the phones get turned off and plugged in. And before bed, usually an hour before bed. Some people say two hours. I know sometimes that’s unrealistic, but you know, things like that people can do to minimize and bring awareness to their relationship with tech. So often I’ll talk to a teenager, and I talk to my own teenager about this. And the way I put it is, you have to ask yourself, What relationship are you prioritizing? If you are on your device, the majority of the time or more than you’re seeing your family and your friends, then that’s the relationship you’re prioritizing. And is that what you want? Because that’s very disconnecting.

Wow. And it’s very convicting, as someone like, if you’re a parent, of course, even just with your friend, or family member, if you’re at dinner, and they’re on their phone, it’s like, wow, yeah, you’re prioritizing whatever’s happening. They’re over, over us over this, this interaction that’s happening. It reminds me, so this week, we’re going through California speaking at various schools, and yesterday, got to do a parent night, which was super encouraging. But we kind of are like, you were like, Hey, we’re gonna, we’re gonna propose some stuff, that’s tough. Because our culture says that you need this stuff, and your kids are going to feel left out if they don’t have all the same stuff, like, what am I going to do though my friends communicate with Snapchat? They will, you’re going to have to do something difficult, you’re going to have to get their phone number instead and start a text chain. And sure, it’s not gonna be the same convenience. But it’s, it’s really about like, as, as a parent, as a caretaker, are you willing to do something that’s difficult for your child in order to keep them alive and safe for as long as possible? And more importantly, from what I’m hearing from you is, it’s all goes back to that brain development science. It’s, it’s not you just saying, “Oh, I think something bad is going to happen. It’s saying, “Hey, we’re going to develop this strongest person we can, while you’re living with us under our roof, you know, these are the rules, and we’re going to partner to build boundaries, and make sure that you have the best chance for success as you can.” And there’s, there’s a partnership between kids and parents that goes there. And they can they can tell if you care enough to do that. And I’ve had, I’ve had kids tell me, you know, I in high school. Yeah, it sucks sometimes that my parents will let me go to parties, or they will let me on social media. But I’m unlucky enough that they really, really care. And they do ask me where I’m going. Like, they even get it at a young age as a teenager, even though they scream at you and fight with you. They they recognize how much you care by the boundaries that you set. So I love I don’t think there. Maybe there are extreme, but I love it.

Yay, bravo to you. I’m so glad to hear that. And I and I think that because of the work you do, it’s so it’s so intertwined with what I’m talking about, you know, because you’re right, you do have to do the hard thing. I always say, we’re not their friends. We’re not supposed to be their friends. Right. And they don’t want us to be their friends. They want us to be the boundary, they need that from us. In fact, I don’t get very many thank yous for my kids. But my 15 year old a while ago did say thank you for not giving him an iPad when he was two, because he see is his peers, and how how different he is. And simple stuff. Like we were going to a restaurant this was even a few years ago, he might have been 12. And it was looked really busy. And there was a lot of traffic. And so I asked him, I said, I’ll just you know, do me a favor, hop out, go ask the hostess, if there’s a long way. And if there’s not too long of a wait, I’ll park and we’ll go in. So he’s about to get out and his friend was with us and his friend goes, you can do that. Oh, I would never be able to do that.

Someone something like that. Like, like Yeah, to actually like speak to an adults look them in the eye ask a question. Because there’s so much social anxiety in this generation, because they’re always behind a screen. So just that like that, things that you and I take for granted that we wouldn’t even think twice about. And so he sees that. So he never thought that that was abnormal or different from anyone else until he went out in the world and got some friends and realized that that sets him apart. And so I did get a thank you for not giving him an iPad when he was two.

Empowering Communities: Collaborating with Nicole Runyan for Youth Development

Wow, that’s special. That’s really really cool. So Nicole, how can well first of all kind of what kind of work could you do in communities? And how can we work with you? If this is really resonated with us? We want to get the same information out and take advantage of all the great work that you’re doing, what can we do with you? And how can we connect with you? If that sounds awesome? 

Yeah, that sounds awesome. I really want to speak anywhere where there’s parents, I think this is such an important message for parents to hear. And so if you have a parent group of school, a church group or community that would be open to hearing me, I would love to do that. I do have a website that is an old sort of old website, it looks like I’m a psychotherapist on there. And I’m really not a psychotherapist anymore. I, any individual work I do, which is even minimal now is parent coaching. Because again, I really think that if the parents make the changes, the kids can get better. But it’s Nicolerunyon.com. And in April, it’ll be sort of switched over to more information about booking me to speak and things like that. I’m on Instagram at iGeneration mental health. And I’m on LinkedIn under Nicole Runyan. So I share a lot of good content on there. And just, you know, talking a lot about everything we discussed today. 

And that sounds perfect. I’ll make sure to put those links to your socials and to your website, on the show notes. So anyone who’s listening, you can just click on that. And Nicole, just thank you, again, for being on the show of being so generous with your expertise. I’m fascinated by our conversation. So like, I could literally talk to you all day. Yeah, so I appreciate you so so much. 

Well, thank you, I feel like like I said, we have a lot in common and our work intersects. And so I’m not we could talk for a long time. And I appreciate you having me on and introducing me to your audience. Thank you!

Of course, and for everyone listening. Thank you for the life saving work that you do in drug prevention and working with youth. And, again, I just can’t recommend it enough. Get on Nicole sites, interact with her. And if you found this really valuable, send it to a group that you work with someone who works with parents. Because there was a lot of great tips that that happened in this episode. And it’s not just for us, but we can be good stewards of it and share it with others. So please do that. And then if you enjoy the show, leave us a review. That’s the best way to say thank you for this free content that we put out every single week. And yeah, that’s about it. So this has been another episode of the Party Talk Podcast where We Empower Leaders in Drug Prevention. We’ll see you next Monday for another episode.