“From Musician to School Counselor: The Journey of Joel Rathmann”

[00:00:08] Jake White: Welcome back everybody to Party Talk, where we empower leaders in youth drug prevention. This episode I’m super stoked about we talk with Joel Rathmann. This guy is so fun. He is a school counselor in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, we actually met in college, didn’t talk much, but got reconnected. And this is such a fun conversation, we actually had to split it up into two episodes. So please enjoy part one, you’re going to hear some funny stories, and some great tips if you’re a school counselor, or if you work with students, really ways to build a culture, and to talk with your students. And just to recognize the power that you have as a school counselor to influence their lives. So, enjoy. Tell everyone just a little bit about yourself growing up, like who is Joel? And where are you at now? 

[00:01:04] Joel Rathmann: So deep. So if you can’t tell by my accent, I am from Wisconsin. And I grew up in the suburbs, outside of Wisconsin, like a South Westish region. And when I was in school, I was really trying to find my identity and try to find myself. So it’s fun to be a high school counselor. And also there’s a middle school on the upper floor. So seeing the middle schoolers of that age too, because it’s such a fun and spicy age. That’s what I tell people, whenever they asked me they’re like, what do you think about middle schoolers? And I am like, “They’re spicy? Like, some people enjoy the spices, for other people, it’s just too hot”. I like to use that. I was really trying to find myself and my brothers were into sports. Because my dad at least was really gung on the sports, he would attend all the athletic events. But I was really into music. And singing was my jam. And when I was in high school, I was in the musicals, I was in chorus. I was in solo ensemble, all this stuff. And when I went to college, I didn’t know what the heck I wanted to do. Because my family was running their own business. So they’re like, you don’t need colleges, let’s stick to a family business. And I’m like, “No, I like learning.” And so I wanted to continue that. So I jumped from major to major, but I was always taking music classes. And that’s what led me to sing professionally and pursue a degree in music. Because after I heard, one of my colleagues sing opera for the first time, and it blew my mind. And I was like, I want to be able to do that. And so then I just kept pursuing it, and people were telling me, you’re not going to make any money. I’m like whatever. But I didn’t care. Because I was just so excited about performing professionally, and by traveling and stuff like that. And it led me to grad school. And I did get a little taste of that. I traveled around the Midwest, I performed professionally with various companies in Illinois or Iowa. And after grad school, gave me this Vision moment, or light bulb moment, was when my mom had stage four breast cancer. And it was right on the last year of my graduate studies. And something clicked, I don’t know what but I just realized, I’m like, I don’t know if I want to do this for the rest of my life, to be away from my family and away from loved ones. So after grad school, I finished, I moved back home, I helped my mom out and sang around the Milwaukee area, but didn’t go too crazy with it. And I was kind of lost. I didn’t know what the heck I wanted to do with my life. So I started getting into the family business. But then I met Martha, my wife, and she really inspired me to go back to school because she was going back to school as a PT. And she’s like, well, we’re the same age. Like why wouldn’t you just try again? I’m like I did seven years of school. I don’t want to do any more than that. And at night, we’re like brainstorming nitpicking, what would it go back to school for? What do I enjoy doing? And what I enjoy doing the most one, my professional career was doing this children’s show in Madison and connecting with kids. And like showing them what music can look like, educating them on how awesome it is. And then also, when I was giving voice lessons, one little secret about voice lessons is that they often turn into like pseudo therapy sessions. And the reason behind that is because the voice is the most sensitive instrument, in my opinion. And that’s what I’ve heard from other people. Because if something goes wrong, it’s you. So it’s a little bit more connected and a little bit touchier. And that’s why singers have a personality, trumpet players impersonate all that place or whatever. But I enjoyed the part of processing things with people and talking through things and listening. And I was telling my wife about me, she was my girlfriend at the time, but I was telling my now wife about it. And she’s like, why don’t you go into school counseling. And I thought, well, I have gone back to higher education for nine years. Like, clearly, I love education, I love learning stuff. I love the school systems. And I love kids. And I love helping kids out. And I thought back to my school counselor too, who was just absent and didn’t really guide me or really pushed me towards my goals. I mentioned the professional singer thing, too. And they were like, that’s a good idea. But let’s do this. And it was like maybe I want to do that. So I wanted to be a guiding tool for students to help them out. And that’s what led me to where I am. And now it’s my second year as a school counselor. And I really enjoy the work I do. I really enjoy connecting with the kids and having those light bulb moments, those conversations, even if they’re just coming to my office all disgruntled and you know, all my mom’s the worst of around, just really frustrated. And it’s like, okay, let’s process this with your teenage mind. This is fun. So that’s pretty much everything up to this point in a short, condensed version. 

[00:07:39] Joel Rathmann: I love that. I love that you said yes to something new went back to school. I love that your music and teaching actually taught you lessons about, you said, sharing yourself. And sounds like even being vulnerable. And finding out who you are. It seems like you went through a journey. Now you get to help other students navigate those same waters, which is what middle schooler and high schooler is trying to figure things out, walks into their guidance counselor’s office and gets you, somebody who’s going to listen to them, is going to say, yes, my parents thought my career path was crazy, too. But it led me to where I am today. And I had fun along the way, and to listen, because what I heard you say about your school counselor experiences, they just didn’t really listen to you. Instead, they had their agenda, which maybe was like your parents agenda, which is probably, well, that’s not going to pay. So maybe you should think of something they might say is more realistic. Adults, we tend to do that, we want you to be safe, we want you to be secure. So don’t go after those big dreams. Don’t go after that risky career. Try this one instead. But forget like how soul crushing had as a kid. The journey getting there will probably just lead you to your next thing. And create it, just like blind dating, maybe create a better story. So that’s so cool. So I’m curious, since school, a couple of years behind, you’ve been in the role for two years? If you can remember this. Is there anything that you learn going from that master’s, you were doing music that correlates or is helpful within the counseling field when you got your second degree? Was there any like similarities were you like, that’s connected or that’s weird? 

[00:09:39] Joel Rathmann: Absolutely. I feel that people really undervalue and underestimate music. Because there’s a lot of correlations with music that can go into the real world and quite frankly, if you ever come across a musician, just hire them, because they’re the most responsible people on the planet because one, they have to learn entire symphonic words or in my case operas in a completely different language, they have to translate it, they have to know the notes, they have to know the rhythms, they have to know the staging, they have to know all this crazy stuff. And that can be applied to wherever you end up. So that amount of dedication, that amount of work, focus, pseudo perfectionism. Like you’re aiming towards that goal. It really aligns to wherever you end up in especially school counseling, because you’re accountable for, my caseload is roughly 400 Kids, I have to manage their academic career planning, I have to make sure that I’m available for social emotional learning, or social emotional moments that come day to day. I also am the eighth grade recruiter. So within the district I work in, its open enrollment. So middle schoolers can pick and choose which high school they want to go to. So my job is to go out and recruit eighth graders to come to my high school. And there’s just so many hats that a school counselor wears that I think that being a musician, you have to wear a lot of hats too, because you’re singing different genres, you’re singing different languages, you’re doing different styles, performances, just always have to be on and stuff like that. So the work ethic really translate. Transitions are transferred from music to school counseling, and then the emotional stuff, the artistry behind being in touch with your emotions, being able to emote, those emotions, listen to other ensemble members, as you’re singing, as you’re collaborating and stuff like that, that transitions to school counseling, as you’re listening to your students, you’re listening to the staff members, because what I’m learning more and more, and they told us that you know about this in school, but the school counselors are really the glue in the building. They’re the bridge between students, and staff, and admin and stuff like that. So we’re the voice for students. And we are that middle person to negotiate on behalf of the students and almost translate teenage lingo into adult lingo, because sometimes you’ll say exactly what the student said, and a staff member will be like, they don’t, they’re just 16. They don’t know what they’re talking about. But then if you reframe their words, to adults, then all of a sudden their tune changes. And so it’s just fun navigating those waters. And I think that’s how those degrees mesh together. 

“Exploring Substance Use Prevention and Student Support with School Counselor Joel Rathmann”

[00:12:50] Jake White: There it is another one, you were translating in languages for your opera. Now you’re translating spicy middle school, high school language too. That’s so good. I want to pivot over to talking a little bit about substance use prevention. And so far, we’ve talked about social emotional learning, which is huge. And in that teenage years finding yourself, we know what students are going through and you’re in the counseling field. So you’re seeing it every day. And so I’m curious in a place like Milwaukee, Wisconsin, the beer, you’re making capitol. I love that the gap. No, but still, in Wisconsin culture, it’s all about beer. As far as a culture goes. How do you think, what are your students seeing as far as drug use? And maybe, how the culture plays into that, just want to pick your brains on what students are facing in Wisconsin? 

[00:13:54] Joel Rathmann: So at least I can’t speak for the whole states, but at least at my school in my location of 400 students, the population is predominantly Latinx and are Hispanic. And then African American black. And then it goes on from there, Asian, Native American white, so there’s a shortest board of people at the school, but we are also predominantly low SES or social economic status. So a lot of our students are struggling financially in the families as well. So the biggest hurdle that we have with our students is not so much drug abuse, which I was going into it, I was honestly shocked because I grew up in a school district where alcohol was a major problem and it was like kids coming in high and stuff like that. So I was going into it expecting and this is where I need to check my bias when I was going into the profession, but I’m like, well, it’s in the city. Of course, there’s going to be issues there. But what I found is that these kids, the biggest hurdle that they have within, in front of them is the financial burden. So a lot of kids, instead of focusing on school, they focus on work. And they prioritize work over everything else. So what I can say about my students wholeheartedly, is that they’re probably the hardest working kids I’ve ever met. Their focus is just on the financial gain, and the short term goal instead of the long term goal and academics and what academics could lead them to. And as far as drug use in the school, our school is pretty well managed in the sense that the worst that happens is a kid will come in, and they’ll smell of marijuana. And in those instances, unfortunately, and the sad truth is, is that there’s not much follow up because you can’t test them, you can’t anything like bad if you have speculation, maybe you can search through their locker or something like that. But more often than not, kids will not bring stuff to school. They usually do it before school. And for those kids, those are the ones that more often than not do not have a job, or all to have a school. And that’s their choosing to do that routes. I’m not sure if you’re familiar with Resume. He wrote a book called ‘My grandmother’s hands’, and he talks about how there’s clean pain for trauma. And then there’s dirty pain for trauma. So clean pain, or dirty pain is using substances to numb the pain. And it’s quick, it’s easy, but it’s dirty. And some of our students I feel use that instead of the other students have or majority of which use clean pain, where they prioritize work, and they are fixated on getting money and providing for their families, you talk to them, and the majority of them are like, I need to help my mom with the bills, or I need to make sure my dad has enough for rent or whatever. And they just don’t have the time for the drugs, quite frankly. Which is shocking. But when I do come across kids that are struggling with drug abuse and whatnot, I often have them come into my office. Just talk to them. I’m there to listen, I’m not there to judge. I’m not there like, Dude, you smell like pot, what’s going on? I don’t that. I’m like, How are you doing? They just flat out, this simple question was that. How are you? And more often, sometimes you’ll get those kids that are very fine or need all of this be like resistance and whatever. Why’d you call me in here? But then, often what I find is, when I just very calmly and before I even ask how they’re doing, I just offer, Hey, I got like a granola bar, do you want one? Or can I get you something to drink? And my office as a home. And I welcome them. And then I asked them how they’re doing and how are you feeling lately, and more often than ost kids will be like, I’m not doing good. Mr. Rathman. I’m really struggling. And it’ll be like, well, whats go on and it’d be like, I’m just not sleeping. I got this going on at home or X, Y and Z. And, then I’ll say, “What do you notice helps. And what I am hopeful for is that kids are very open about their drug use, which I was not expecting in my first couple of years.” A lot of kids are just very open to the fact they’re like, “Well, Mr. Rathmann, I smoke weed.” Like, how much do you smoke and figure out why they do it. And, I’m asked on questions without judgment. But I haven’t come across a lot of students with alcohol. I would say marijuana. 

[00:19:43] Jake White: Well, that’s enlightful. I don’t know if that’s a word enlightful. What I’m hearing is that students they’re using maybe not to an extraordinary amount that it’s your whole population, but it’s happening on campus, whether you do before school after school. And what’s really interesting is that there’s students who are providing for their families, they might feel like, they’re more of an adult, because they’re they have these responsibilities, well, have to have this job after school. And so they don’t have time to use, which I would say is a great thing. Like you said, it’s that clean option, it’s not dirty. And that’s really great. They’re probably learning a lot of skills and working in teams and their jobs, and they have a sense of responsibility, which, in our country, it seems like, our responsibility is delayed until even after college. So it feels like, you’re not an adult until you’re 22, 23 years old. Whereas they’re at an age 15, 16. And they’re learning responsibility, which is more like the olden times having a job when you’re a teenager and help out the family. And they’re not sitting around saying, I’m bored, or I have nothing to do. And so you think, Well, what can I get into? Or how can I solve this boredom? The quick thing is to get high, or that’s what my friends are doing, instead they’re like, no, I have goals. I need to provide for my family, I’ve got to do these things. And they don’t get the easy way out, they actually get the hard way out, which is building character. And it’s developing skill sets, which is really, really cool. On the other hand, it might be adding some stress and things to their life, which if they don’t have those continued clean outlets that they can learn from you, then there might be a time in their mind when they say, well, how do adults deal with stress? Oh, they get drunk, or they get high. And so they might decide, well consider those things. But it sounds like there’s a spectrum of different people on your campus, and experiences from the ones who are getting high before school to the ones that don’t have time to use. 

[00:22:11] Joel Rathmann: Exactly. And for those kids that also don’t have jobs or they don’t have those stressors, or their families are within a financial comfort. I then gear them towards okay. What do you want to do after high school? And I always leave with, I know, that’s a typical question? And I’d like to joke about it and laugh about it. Because it’s funny, because I always tell kids too, it’s always going to change, I was an opera singer. And then I became a school counselor, it’s going to change no matter what. Where you start off, you take whatever skills you gain and from wherever you start off, and you grow with it. And so what I encourage kids to do, because a lot of our students have access to a lot of opportunities that most students don’t have, like pre college programs that cost 1000s of dollars, but because of their financial situation, they can get it for free. So I tell kids to, even if you’re remotely interested in college, do a pre college program, go, they’ll take you to UW Oshkosh, our alma mater, and they have business stuff, and whatever, if you hate it, you learned something, you don’t want to go to college, that’s fine. Or you don’t want to go to that particular campus. Or if you love it, then maybe you want to pursue that like young entrepreneurialship, or like sciences or whatever. So I always try to gear kids away from just like, I’m going to go home and do nothing. I feel like a busy body is always a better body. 

[00:23:57] Jake White: That’s good. I can resonate with that, like, the first thing that I do in our curriculum, and in our presentation is ask that same question. What do you want your life to look like 5, 10 years down the road. Because if you can imagine that you can have a great future. Now we have a reason to make good decisions, is you want to achieve those things? But if you can’t imagine yourself in a better situation, then honestly, it’s like, well, why wouldn’t I use drugs? Like I literally only have this moment to please myself. So yes, I’m going to get drunk, I’m going to get high. And so giving them that vision. And that foundation is so important, because it holds them accountable to their own future and gives them hope that they can achieve it. So it’s just really cool to hear you say that, that even coming into your office, they’re getting that message that you can do what you want. There are people around here who are willing to invest in you know, college prep programs. Even, what’s so cool about the counseling role, and actually now I’m curious about it. If there was a time when school counselors weren’t doing this kind of work. They were literally only around to get you to college or because sometimes there’s a prevention specialist at the school. It’s only selected places because oftentimes its grant funded, it’ll last three to five years. And then it could be gone if you don’t build it sustainably into your school district. And so maybe there’ll be a time in the future where that’s everywhere. Wasn’t that amazing? I love talking with Joel. And before we go, just make sure to click on the next episode. If it’s available, just click on it. It is definitely worth it. More funny stories, more good times, laughs and, again, just the things that come out of Joel’s mouth. This guy is so good. And if you haven’t done so already, please subscribe to the podcast, share with another prevention specialists, counselor, principle. Anybody who works with you, if you think it might be helpful, that way we can keep doing the podcast and serving people. I really appreciate you. Have a great day.