Saul Malik’s Background and Mission

Welcome back to another episode of the Drug Prevention Power Hour. I’m your host, Jake White. And today I’m talking with a new friend, Saul Malik. And let me tell you a little bit about him because when I learned what he was doing, I was immediately interested because he’s running parallel to us in substance use prevention. 

Our topics go hand in hand and the way our country’s moving right now, there’s just a lot of people who are knocking on Saul’s door saying, can you help me? let me, Saul, I’m gonna read a little bit about you and then I’ll definitely wanna learn your intro and all that stuff. So here we go. Saul Malek is a 26 year old Dallas based speaker focusing on self acceptance, resilience, positive decision-making and gambling harm prevention. 

Saul developed a gambling addiction as a college sophomore, losing money, time, relationships, and nearly his life. Since finding recovery in 2019, he has made it his mission to help others cope with life, find purpose, and keep away from maladaptive behaviors such as compulsive gambling. So Saul, that’s an incredible mission. Welcome to the show. I’m glad to have you. 

Thanks, Jake. It’s great to be here. It’s really awesome to see you acknowledging problem gambling and what I’ve been doing. So I’m honored to be here with you. 

Yeah, well let’s get into it, man. Tell me, I mean, tell me a little bit about your story and how you became passionate about this. I mean, we talked a little bit about it, but I’d love to hear it from you. 

Yeah, absolutely. 

Saul Malik’s Personal Journey with Gambling Addiction

So my gambling journey really started in college. And I say that because I’ve mentioned in interviews before that I had gambled a little as a kid. I had been exposed to scratch off tickets every now and again and that sort of thing. But that was not really where it took shape. It was my sophomore year of college. a big sports nut. One of my friends who I played fantasy baseball with said, hey, I know a bookie you know, to do sports betting with. And he said, why don’t you start betting sports with me? You’re, really good at it. So, you know, you’re good at fantasy baseball. So why don’t you jump in? And I always tell people I was hesitant at first. was a college student. I didn’t have a job. you know, $10 on a baseball bet. And I thought, well, you know, I looked at the games that night and I thought, I found one. That’s a, that’s a winner. And that first win, I tell you, I mean, it was a blowout baseball win. 

And it convinced me that not only was this fun, but this was something I was amazing at. was something that would make me money. I loved sports and I didn’t want to work. So I thought, well, gambling is the way to make money. So I replicated that on the weekend. I won this huge underdog football match. was my sophomore year of college back in 2017. And from there, it it snowballed. mean, the, the abridged version is that I went from one bookie to the next once I eventually was losing enough to where I ran out of money and I would keep finding new people to bet with. And then when I would owe them money, block their phone numbers, find a new person, block their phone numbers. And while all of this was going on, Jake, the world doesn’t stop. The world does not stop. So I was still in school. I was still having to sit through classes with my phone on my lap checking baseball bets, European tennis bets. I was lying to my girlfriend. My parents were affected. So essentially the reason I’m doing all of this is because of my own journey. And when I quit gambling in 2019, this was right around the time when sports betting was starting to boom here in the U .S. I don’t know if you’re familiar, are you familiar with what happened in 2018 in the sports betting landscape? 

I’m not, unless you’re talking about using all these apps, but I’m not too familiar. 

Well, that’s totally connected with it. So in 2018, the Supreme Court said states now have the right to decide if they’re going to legalize sports betting. So now you have like 38 states, I believe, that have legalized sports betting. now it’s shooting up everywhere. And I saw that and I thought, well, I’m interested in going back to my high school in Houston and talking to the kids because I’m sure it’s a problem. And I know we have an assembly at St. John’s where they bring in someone to give a little talk. 

It started with that. And then I had the idea that, you this went well. And I see guys like you, you know, really making an impact and being able to speak at schools as a profession. And I thought, well, why don’t I take my stab at it? And so since the end of 2022, I’ve built up my website. I’ve been doing all the cold outreach that everyone talks about. And I’ve been able to find myself on some stages now. And it’s, less about the personal. Accomplishment more about being someone to get the message out. So it’s been good.

Yeah, that’s cool because oftentimes, like you mentioned at the beginning, what students will identify with is, this is something that feels fun. since Vive 18 does substance use prevention and drug prevention, it’s the same thing. It’s this feeling, this high of dopamine rush, and it’s intoxicating. And so when you share your personal story and they relate to that point, but not see the end result, it is important for students who are using, whether it’s gambling or a drug or some sort of unhealthy coping mechanism, to know that there’s a way out and you can help them identify that. I’m curious as far as gambling goes, because I’ll be honest, a few years ago, there was a couple people who said, Jake, you should talk about gambling. And I’m over the perspective that, that’s, I mean, that’s not me. I don’t have a personal relationship with that. I, you know, so I get, I get people’s heart when they tell you that, hey, this is a problem. You should help tackle it. Cause they see you doing one good thing. So it’s cool to hear that like, no, I don’t have to say I’m going to do that. Saul is doing that. And I’m curious because back then I also had this skepticism. 

I was thinking, is gambling really an issue for young people? And I bet, like you’re saying, 2018 is probably a time when it became more accessible for young people and more enticing. So what are we seeing today as far as problems with gambling? How prevalent is it or why is it such a problem? 

The Prevalence and Normalization of Gambling Among High School Students

So the thing I first immediately jumped to when you mentioned the skepticism behind youth gambling, exclusively youth gambling, think it almost, I’m sure to older people that have been through addictions or seen the effects of it on other people, it almost may seem insulting for a 20 year old kid to go around saying, I have a gambling addiction. They say, hold on a minute. I lost my marriage. I lost my kids. I gambled for 35 years. 

And this is some college kid who lost five bucks to a bookie, you know, big deal. So I think that’s the, that may be the initial impression to some that some of the pushback that I’ve at least seen online with some of that. But I will say to answer your question. So I read a recent study by national council on problem gambling. This was within the last couple of years, they said 60 to 80 % of high schoolers gamble in some capacity. And you have ground three or four percent that are, you know, have a gambling problem or showing signs that they would have a problem if I do recall correctly. So it’s a big issue. And when it is so normalized and when people do have maybe that initial skepticism, I believe it makes it harder to get help because first of all, a kid might say, well, I’m just blown this out of proportion. I just had a bad run of it. 

I’m just inexperienced, I’ll get better as a gambler or I’ll just make more money. It’s not a big deal. Or they think, well, if I go look for help, then it’s a shameful thing to complain of this as a problem when it’s really not a problem because other people don’t see it as a problem. So I think you’re in kind of a conundrum here because people thinking it’s not an issue doesn’t mean it isn’t. It just means they don’t see it. So it’s a tough place to be, but it’s also, you know, here kind of the later stages of 2024. I feel that I’m seeing more media out there about the next epidemic and gambling is the next opioid crisis and all this. So I think part of it is being brought to the light these days. 

Yeah, when you were talking about that, I immediately thought it is the same things happening with the marijuana industry. The more commercialization you have, the more normalized it is, and the more young people who start doing it. And the younger they start, the more likely they are to develop an addiction. And we know that because the front part of the brain isn’t developed yet. you mentioned that study, which is so fascinating, that that many students in high school have already like they’ve tried it. They’ve done some sort of gambling online probably. And I’m remembering a study I read, I can’t cite it right now, but it was out of Colorado when they were studying as marijuana was legalized and what are the effects. And one of the things that stood out to me the most was I look at this chart for the commercialization of marijuana products. it shows this increase in commercialization after it was legalized. Then I see a line of suicide rates and it matches that line. As the more commercialization happened, the suicide rates went up for those who were using. it made perfect sense. 

And I think that as we as we market and promote a product, the goal is to normalize it. The goal is to make people believe it’s not risky, it’s not harmful. And so our jobs become more important and they become a necessity is not only the recovery piece, but also the prevention piece. And I want to ask you because you’re kind of in, in both spaces right now, right? You’re in, you’re in prevention and you’re in the recovery space. When you’re working with young people or schools, is it an immediate buy -in? Like, yes, we need this, or is there a little pushback because it’s being normalized? 

I think it goes both ways. I’d say I’ve gotten better results just by knowing the school administrator. think starting with my high school and being able to have some familiar faces vouch for me and say, we saw this guy, we think what he’s doing is worth having at your school. That’s been easier. I think part of it is a regional thing as well. I think that some of the states like up Northeast Connecticut is a big one where they’re doing a lot on gambling, grants in the colleges, the high schools are looking at it. And so once words gotten around there, it’s been a lot easier. would say that there, excuse me, there’s almost a necessity to really stress the whole mental health component of the issue because on its own, it’s like gambling. Well, gambling is one topic.

If you say, okay, well, why don’t we just have the overall prevention talk? Why do we need to have another talk on gambling? It’s like, okay, I mean, I don’t know that I necessarily agree with that, but that’s what a lot of people seem to think. So I think really pitching it is, well, here’s a mental health talk that has the gambling story and has the information on gambling, but overall is more about choices and decision-making. And here’s how one could fall into gambling compulsion by using gambling as an outlet for other things. So I think that’s important how to frame it and still get the point across. 

Addressing Problem Gambling as a Mental Health Concern

Yeah, that is important because if we keep trying to treat the symptoms instead of the cause, then we’re going to struggle. And we’ve seen this happen, right? There’s this new drug that comes out or there’s something like problem gambling, high risk behaviors, cutting, stuff like that. And it’s almost like it goes in fads or phases and one thing’s out, the new one’s in, one thing’s in, new one’s out. If we keep trying to keep up with that, we’re not going to make any progress. It doesn’t make sense. 

So what I hear you saying, which is cool, is that when you do your presentations, you’re talking about mental health, you’re talking about resilience and coping skills because that’s prevention. And your tailored style is you come from the aspect of, my high risk behavior was gambling. And so I can speak to that, but this talk is about you and uncovering kind of those causes and how you can fight back or build healthy habits. Does that sound right?

Yeah, absolutely. I think that’s a fair assessment. And I would say that it’s really interesting because I believe as a high schooler, I was afraid of drugs. was afraid. I mean, I was drinking a non alcoholic beer at my prom after party because I was afraid of drinking alcohol as a minor. But I saw gambling as kind of the safe escape. And so it all goes back to, you know, wanting to escape to something to feel like a big shot, feel accepted, to feel cool. So if I hadn’t gambled, who knows, it would have been something else. So I think that that’s important to not just talk about gambling, but put it in its proper context. But I mean, it’s important, Jake, I mean, because I do think that there’s still overall a general consensus that this is lower on the totem pole in terms of the things that are out there. So I guess bringing it up to its proper place and then being able to leverage all the mental health stuff to kind of be able to discuss all of it. 

Yeah. If someone’s listening right now and our audience focuses on substance use prevention and this is something though that gets packaged in sometimes because maybe there’s a grant out there that says, hey, we’re going to address these topics and things like that. How can we be more aware of this and what to look out for if maybe a student might have an issue or if there’s red flags in our town as far as like, this is becoming a problem, what are the things that you’ve seen that have identified a problem or that you could teach us about being more aware? 

I’d say one of the big things is just starting early on. Like look at things like fantasy sports leagues and see how involved are the kids in those leagues because I think to label all gambling behavior, all risk taking is automatically, know, addiction or a problem I think is going too far. But looking at those early signs, seeing who is glued to their phone, checking the scores 24 seven for the sports betting or always watching the game you know, having a need to talk about who they would prefer, who they like in the game, you know, how much money they have. 

So I think it starts early in friend groups and things. It starts a lot of it is in these group chats where guys are mainly the guys talking about the sports betting and things. So that’s a big one. And with all the technology now, something that I always talk about is people’s young people’s use of technology. They’re hiding their phone use and you know, sneaking off to go to the bathroom every two minutes and being on the phone, you know, or being on the phone at dinner, what are they doing for me? And for a lot of people I talked to that have the gambling issue, a lot of that, you know, has to do with gambling is the hidden, hidden sort of behavior. A lot of secretive behavior, you know, if money goes missing, if a lot of money somehow turns up, if a young person needs loans for things out of nowhere. I mean, all of that stuff is red flag behavior. 

Differentiating Between a Game and a Gamble

Yeah. Okay. That’s good to hear and good to know because not only our phones, we’re talking about students losing their attention span and getting dopamine in addictive ways is the phone itself with social media is already addictive. And then now we have access to gambling platforms on there and low stakes ones, like you said, like fantasy football or high stakes ones where you’re betting more. And I’m curious because I’m not in your specific lane, the difference between a game and a gamble, know? Because my wife and I love games, all kind of games with friends. 

We’ll sometimes like on date night, we’ll just go to restaurant we like, pull out some cards, know, play Rummy 500, keep our scores. And at no point do I think that this is a problem. We’re not betting. Is betting what makes it gambling? Is that the dopamine rush or what is the difference between a game and a gamble? 

Good question. I think for the first thing I’ll say is whether or not something’s harmful is what I look at. Whether it’s causing harm versus whether you’d classify it as gambling or not because I know like my sponsor in my recovery group will talk about playing Monopoly with his grandson and it’s not something he gets a rush out of rolling the dice. It’s just something as a way to spend time with family. 

I mean, I will say to differentiate it, what I know of gambling is that it’s a game of chance with an unknown. There’s an unknown outcome. You’re risking something of value. There’s some sort of risk element to it. And then there’s an element of chance. Although with things like sports betting or poker, it can be argued there’s elements of skill to it as well. But still there’s this unknown outcome. I’d say the game doesn’t have that just a regular game, you’re not wagering, you’re not risking something of value necessarily. So, I don’t know what I would say is that it really has to do with that risk and then the unknown, there’s that anticipation. And that was a big source of a high for the gambling for me was not actually placing the bet or having the bet happen. It was the anticipation of I’m gonna place this bet. I can’t wait, you know, it’s that lead up to it. 

Resources for Learning More About Problem Gambling

Okay, that’s interesting. Yeah, because your body felt that. That was the feeling that you got. The quote, win, wasn’t about winning. It was about the anticipation. Yeah, okay. Wow, that’s so interesting. Well, let’s do this because I would love to just open it up to you. Let’s say there’s someone listening to this and they want to learn more about gambling and this issue, what are some things that you’ve learned or resources that you know about where people can go to find Yeah, just more information. And then I want to ask you that same question for you afterwards. Like, how can we learn more about you? But is there anything that you dove into when you became passionate about helping in this field? And any books, resources, conferences, studies, anything that people can go check out? 

Yeah, so I know I’ve been involved with various state councils in terms of the problem gambling councils that are out there. So I would say first and foremost, if you’re in a state that I would just look up to see if there is an NCPG affiliate in the state you’re in. Most states have some sort of state affiliate of NCPG where they have materials, resources, you know, they’ll sometimes I know in Connecticut they have a bus that travels around. like a giant van. 

They go out to the community and they list certain resources and things. So on the national level, you do have the National Council on Problem Gambling, which oversees all the state affiliates and they have articles and various resources out there. I mean, on the more therapeutic side, I know there’s a group called Algomis, which is in Arizona like you, and they’re a treatment center exclusively focused on gambling addiction and they’ve been around for quite some time and I know that they will post various research studies and articles and things. I follow them on Instagram. There’s another group called KindBridge. They’re another behavioral health center that publishes a lot of new findings on gambling and gambling addiction. And I’d say from the recovery standpoint, I mean, I personally go to Gambler’s Anonymous. I know you’re not supposed to, if you’re anonymous, you’re not supposed to speak as like a rep of GA or anything, but I’ll just say for me that it’s been a very useful program and they have all sorts of literature as well that people can access. 

Okay, that’s great. Thank you for those. So you heard it, some resources you can go if you’re like, hey, I wanna check more of this out. And then if you’re listening to Saul and you’re like, hey, we would love to have him come to our school or work with our people or I know somebody who’s also passionate about this. Saul, how can they get in touch with you and check out all the stuff that you’re doing? 

Contacting Saul Malik for Speaking Engagements

Sure. Yeah, thanks Jake. First, I’m really active on LinkedIn. So just my name, Saul Malik. You should be able to find me pretty easy. I have my own website, which is just SaulMalik .com. And I have some clips on there from some podcasts and interviews. I’m looking to upload some more things so I can get some footage from my talks. I think that’ll be a more direct view of what I’ve been doing. So I’m hoping to have that uploaded with these next couple of talks. SaulMalik.com and then I’m on Instagram, SaulMalikSpeaking. So you can find me there too. 

Okay, awesome. That’s great. And I’m gonna spell it out for anybody who’s looking it up. It’s S -A -U -L and his last name is M-A -L -E -K, Saul Malek. Well, Saul, thank you for chatting a little bit about problem gambling today with me. It’s something I’ve been curious about. it’s been really good to learn a little bit from you. I appreciate it. 

Yeah, thanks so much for having me. It was a great conversation and I appreciate your willingness to learn on this topic. 

Of course, and for everyone listening to the Drug Prevention Power Hour, this has been another episode and I hope that you learned something here you can share, whether it’s adjacent to our work or specifically about how you can do prevention, whether it’s primary, secondary, or tertiary prevention a little bit better, because I know we’re all better together and we learn from one another. So we will see you next Monday for another episode.